ICYMI: Los Angeles Lawyer Magazine: A Conversation with the Second Gentleman of the United States

In an interview with Los Angeles Lawyer Magazine, Second Gentleman Douglas Emhoff spoke about his career as an entertainment attorney and being the proud husband of the first woman vice president of the United States, Kamala Harris. He highlighted how his legal background helped prepare him for his current role as Second Gentleman and to become a distinguished visitor from practice at Georgetown University Law Center.

The Second Gentleman also spoke about the role the entertainment industry can play in protecting democracy. He told Los Angeles Lawyer Magazine, "We need to be pro-freedom, pro-creativity, protecting intellectual property—these are things that our industry, the entertainment industry, has to lead on."

Read more below:

Los Angeles Lawyer Magazine: A Conversation with the Second Gentleman of the United States
[Tom Ara, 5/31/24]

Thank you for taking the opportunity to sit and speak with me, Doug. The Los Angeles legal community is excited to hear from one of its own!

It has been a while! I'm glad to speak with you and to address my former peers in the Los Angeles legal community.

Back in 1990, when you were admitted to the California State Bar, you started practicing law in Los Angeles. How would you describe the legal profession when you first started out, and how did it compare with the practice you left behind before your move to Washington, D.C. in 2021 to become Second Gentleman?

I started practice in fall of 1990 and left the practice of law at DLA Piper in August of 2020, so I practiced for nearly 30 years. Think about the changes! I started at my first law firm, walked in, and, at that time, there was no computer on the desk. There wasn't even voicemail. I spent a lot of time in the library looking for materials in actual books. I also spent a lot of time in warehouses and file rooms looking at paper documents in boxes. Things moved much slower than they do today. You had to dictate most of your written material. Then, it had to go down to the word processing department at the firm, where it was typed on a typewriter, so you would get your dictation tape and go to the word processing department, wait in line, and often get elbowed out by the senior associates for their projects. There was a lot of this back and forth. So, things took a while.

There wasn't email, so maybe you sent a fax. Things were harder to do, and everything was slower. But there was a lot of collegiality. People understood that if you were out of the office, you were out of the office. If you were on vacation, you really were on vacation. I think in those days there was a sense of collegiality and professionalism and honor, so to speak. It was nice to start at that time: To experience some of the old veteran lawyers who came up trying cases, or in the room, doing deals. And I got to see that. Of course, over time, there was the advent of technology, which sped everything up and kind of depersonalized the workplace a bit. It led to a little less collegiality. But the mission was always the same, and it is still the same today: Doing the highest-level work for clients. We're there for clients, and however you are going to do that work, you're there for them.

So, my experience was that as technology increased and improved, which meant efficiency and productivity improved, you could crank things out a lot faster. Also, you were able to use technology to send things a lot quicker. Before, you would sit and dictate a letter to go back and forth, mail it, and, worst case, fax it. Then, there would be a day or two, or more, for a response from the other side. So, the battle never got that heated too quickly. Now, of course, it's back and forth with email, texts, and messages in rapid succession.

Even with technology, during my practice, I really prided myself on my professionalism, my relationships, my ability to show my word was good, and, if you were dealing with me, you knew you could trust what I was saying. I might be tough but I always wanted to be professional. In our bar, in our community, working at the highest level, you really get to develop some great relationships, especially with opponents and people on the other side of a deal or the other side of a piece of litigation. So, many times, the biggest honor to me was when an opponent referred a matter to me or brought me in on a matter. That really meant a lot to me.

Your nearly three decades of legal practice in Los Angeles were marked by representing clients in the entertainment industry in disputes and litigation. The allure of entertainment law lies in its dynamism—the intersection of creativity, contracts, and controversy. What drew you to this field, and how did it differ from other legal practices?

Probably, like you, I just loved entertainment. I love movies, music, film, TV. But, then, I realized I loved the business of it too. Living in LA, you know, the dads in the neighborhood worked in the "biz." When I was growing up, I realized it was such a big part of our community, and it was something I just wanted to be in. But I also always wanted to be a lawyer too. Growing up, you can ask my mom, and she'll say, "Yeah, fourth grade, he wanted to be a lawyer." A lot of that was because I hated bullies. I hated when people picked on other kids, and I was always there to stand up. I just thought, "Wow, lawyers do that for a living! That's a job: Standing up for other people!" And I thought that's what I wanted to do too. When I was able to merge my love of media and entertainment with my dream of becoming a lawyer, it was just a natural fit to become an entertainment litigator ultimately.

I'm teaching a class on entertainment litigation at Georgetown Law School now, and the topics have changed just in the past three to four years that I've been doing it— what we're even talking about and what the disputes are. Some of the old-time things you and I worked on—like rights disputes, profit participation, and all the basics— yes, they are still around, but there's so many new issues now, such as AI, and who owns what, and streaming issues, and just the many ways in which the business is changing. You have to be able to keep up. I do miss the evolution of the business and the constant change, but one constant is always the same: Great clients need great lawyers. I just miss being in the mix. When I see these big matters—I'm still reading the trades, incidentally—I'm thinking, "Oh man, I might have been in the mix for that one!"

Your journey from a successful entertainment lawyer to the first Second Gentleman is nothing short of fascinating. How did you navigate the transition?

I went from something not only that I loved so much—I loved my partners, my colleagues, the clients, the business, the town—and it was such a big part of who I was, and I was good at it. It was a big part of my identity. Then, to go from that on a dime— literally on a dime—to something completely different that has never been done before, it's a jarring and surreal transition. However, that said, look at what I'm doing. I get to support my wife—the first woman vice president of the nation. And I get to represent this country that I love so much and to travel around the country and the world, representing the United States of America. I have been very fortunate in this role to do a wide variety of things. The portfolio is pretty large: from representing the United States at the Women's World Cup in New Zealand to representing the United States at inaugurations of foreign leaders, or going to the Easter Egg Roll. I get to do so many things. As I said, foremost, I'm representing my country and also supporting my wife. It helps her, it helps the president, and it helps the administration. So, it's endlessly fascinating. It's something that if I were to leave the profession, which I love so much, this is a pretty amazing way to do it.

Leaving behind your legal practice must have been bittersweet. What do you miss most about practicing law—the adrenaline of a courtroom battle, the thrill of negotiations, or perhaps the camaraderie with fellow attorneys? And, on the flip side, what don't you miss at all?

This is such a great question because I do miss all of that. I miss the action. I really miss all of it! You pick up your phone and, all of a sudden, there's a whole new set of issues awaiting you. And all throughout the day there are important clients who need you for important matters. I miss representing clients who really need a great lawyer in their time of need. I loved the hardest problems for the most important clients—the stuff that's not easy; I loved the stuff that was hard. Also, to really put myself out there for those clients—I miss that. I miss law firm life: the highs and lows—the chase, the recruiting, the clients—all the things we love about law firm life, including the partners who need you to help them on issues and working on firm management issues. So, there's a whole bunch of stuff. But there's also all that action—and stress.

There's also a lot of action here in my present position. You realize people are watching you and listening to you. What I say actually matters, and it gets reported. You really have to be cognizant of being a public figure all of a sudden. So, it's a different kind of buzz, a different kind of stress. However, it's also really exciting and every day there is something new. For example, we've got a campaign we're in right now, too, which I'm fired up about. There's a lot that's happening now that replaces the action and buzz that I loved so much about our legal community here in Los Angeles.

I do not miss the time sheets—not a surprise! But my brain is still operating in that tenth of an hour mindset. My whole timing—everyone is shocked about this—I always know what time it is down to each six minutes! That lawyer tick-tock in your brain never goes away. It's interesting: It's also that same level of productivity that when we develop work here, I want to do billable work in this office, meaning I want to do substantive work that really matters. I don't want to waste any time. That mindset has really helped me in doing public service. It might annoy some of my staff from time to time, but I apply that hard-driving, "big law" partner mentality to everything I do.

In your role as Second Gentleman, your legal training has undoubtedly been an asset. Beyond that, however, what other skills or experiences have proven useful in your current role?

The biggest asset has been being an entertainment lawyer in Hollywood. I had no idea how much that prepared me for this role. Being behind the scenes of people who have been in front of the scenes, I got a bird's eye view of folks who are in front of the camera, so to speak, dealing with stressful situations, staying calm when the situation is not calm and being able to speak extemporaneously, thinking on your feet, always being prepared. All these skills that are necessary to be a successful lawyer in Hollywood have been invaluable in my present position. Plus, being in Hollywood has been invaluable to now being in this front-facing role.

I also have to say that just being a dad and a husband, a family man, has proven very helpful in my present role. Understanding how people are living around the country and around the world, being a family man has really helped inform how I look at these kinds of issues. I can always look at problems and situations that the administration is working on or that I'm working on through the lens of being a dad or through the lens of being a husband. Also, looking through the lens of having a lot of experience in the business community, all of that has really, really helped.

As Second Gentleman, you are in a unique position to champion causes close to your heart. What are some of the causes you have identified and taken on in your role?

Yes, there's a lot to choose from, but I'll highlight three that have probably been most important. One is fighting antisemitism, and hate in general, including Islamophobia, and all forms of hate. I spend a lot of time on these kinds of issues, including to really help to drive the first-ever national strategy to combat antisemitism, which will include a strategy to counter Islamophobia. Again, just fighting hate has been something that from day one I've been focused on.

Two is being married to the first woman in her role as vice president and being the first man in this role, which highlights the whole gender equity issue of fairness. For example, we see it in our profession. We need more women who are equity partners, more women in law firm management. And, of course, that's true in government, military, business, education, you name it. Why is it so unequal? There's slightly over 50 percent women in this country; however, the higher up the professional ladder you go, the fewer women there are. Moreover, this is an issue worldwide. This is an issue that being a man who comes from the business world—the big law world—I thought I could really help move the needle on. And I've really been trying to do so.

And, then, bringing it back home to the legal profession, I am interested in expanding pro bono, access to legal services, encouraging all lawyers to do more, and also just to do more for real people who are actually in need. There are a lot of folks who need help, and there are a lot of lawyers in the profession, so I encourage all our colleagues in the bar to do as much pro bono as possible.

Over the past four years, you have had a unique vantage point as Second Gentleman—an insider's view of our nation's pulse. What do you foresee as the greatest legal and social challenges our country will face in the coming years?

First, I would say the legal challenge is AI—you have to put that right up at the front. What does it mean for the legal profession? How is it going to change how you practice law, and making sure that lawyers are not afraid of technology and embrace it. So, again, think back to my first day on the job—clean desk, no computer, no voicemail, a Dictaphone, and a pad. Now, of course, you have so much technology at your disposal. So, how do you use it as a tool to make sure that lawyers are still being lawyers and representing clients at the highest level?

Second, I would say our rights as citizens. This assault on our rights and our freedoms is something that we all need to take seriously, but especially us lawyers. When you see attacks on the rule of law, the attacks on our Constitution, the attacks on our judges, the attacks on our very system of democracy, we have to take these matters seriously as lawyers. This is a nonpartisan, nonpolitical issue. This is the very basis of who we are as a democracy. That also goes for voting, voting rights, elections, and counting votes. So, all these matters that we have taken for granted, we now need to and must take very seriously as a country. And, as lawyers, we must take these matters seriously. We have to move forward, and we have to prevent our society from moving backward. There's so much good in this country, we have to keep moving it forward, and there's no one better to do that than us lawyers.

Many in the Los Angeles entertainment legal community have closely watched, and supported, Vice President Kamala Harris's rise from district attorney in San Francisco to California Attorney General, then on to become the junior U.S. senator from California, and now vice president. How important has the support of this small yet dedicated community of supporters been to the vice president's success?

It's huge! I mean, she's a lawyer, just like us! It's funny, in a way, like when people always ask me "How did you meet?" "What attracted you to each other?" One of the answers, of course, is: "We're both lawyers." Again, she's like me: She sticks up for people, she hates bullies, she fights for justice and equality, and she's a fierce warrior. And that is so much of what attracted us to each other, and I think our legal community here saw that.

Like some others in the entertainment legal community, I too was at one of those fundraisers for her campaign for California Attorney General in 2010. She claims not to remember meeting me at one of them, but I did meet her. And I saw what we all saw: Here is someone who gets our industry, she knows entertainment, she knows media, she cares about creativity, she cares about protecting rights, and she knows this business, so that was why I supported her in that 2010 race and have continued to support her. Even when we did get together in 2013, as my career was continuing to move forward, she really got it. And the more time she spent with me in LA, she saw my passion for the industry and was able to really see it through my eyes as well. So, I think that only enhanced her support for this great creative community here and their support for her.

As a Distinguished Visitor from Practice at Georgetown Law, you are shaping the minds of future legal professionals during a time of significant change in the world and the legal industry. What are the key lessons you are teaching your students about the future of the legal profession?

I teach entertainment disputes, but it's really broader-based. It's more an entertainment law class on current issues and how if disputes arise out of these current issues, how will you deal with them? I really teach it as a "think as a lawyer, not a law student" approach. Also, I only teach third year students. My goal is, hopefully, to get them, on their way from third-year law school into their legal career, to start thinking about clients and about these issues how a lawyer would and not from the perspective of a law student. We all get that "Well, it could be this, or it could be that" response. However, I say to my students: "Nope! Clients aren't looking for 'it could be this or it could be that.' Clients are looking for advice about how to achieve their goals." That is how I teach the class. In the entertainment class, like I said, I keep it current. We are reading the trades each week. We're looking at hot cases and hot issues, and we talk about them. I also teach a class in alternative dispute resolution, and that is more about getting the students to realize that most disputes do not go all the way to trial. We also go through the various methods of negotiations and mediations. I provide a lot of practical exercises. Again, it's all designed to get them thinking and acting like lawyers. And for me, it's one way to keep my brain and my toe in the water, even though I'm not actually doing what I love so much. This is really great for me because I still get to stay involved. Also, I always wondered what it would be like to teach law, and now I get to do that and find it is really rewarding.

The entertainment industry is vibrant and influential. In your opinion, what role does a thriving entertainment industry play in a nation and society at large?

Well, definitely. The world still looks so much to Hollywood at large to be leaders in content. Look at the slate of films that were nominated this past year. It was one of the banner years in 2023, and '24 is off to an amazing start, plus all the great long-form series. There's so much great content coming out now. That will always set an example. But when you talk about "What does it mean?" I refer to what I mentioned earlier, about how we all have to guard against an erosion of rights. We need to be pro-freedom, pro-creativity, protecting intellectual property—these are the things that our industry, that the entertainment industry, has to lead on and to continue to lead on. I make the case when I'm talking about rights and freedom. We need the freedom to create, we need the freedom for the media to report the truth, and that this is all connected with this industry here. So, we need to make sure those of us who are lawyers in this industry can vigilantly protect our creators and make sure that they can do what they need to do, to get these voices out, to get these ideas out. But they have to hear it, and this is so important.

You have moved from Los Angeles to Washington, D.C. When you get to come back to Los Angeles, what are some of your favorite things to do?

El Cholo just about every trip. I get to see family when I'm here, and some close friends. I love the Santa Monica stairs. You may find me at the Brentwood Soul Cycle once in a while. And I have to see the ocean. There's this little coffee shop on West Channel. It's an old trailer right across from Giorgio Baldi on West Channel. It's just a little trailer, but I love it. I just sit there and go look at the ocean, check it out, and then just leave because it connects me back to our town.

Now, let's rewind the tape. Picture your younger self, fresh out of USC Law School, eager to make a mark in the legal world. If you could give that ambitious young man one piece of advice, what would it be?

I would have told him to slow down a little bit. That kid wanted it all, and he wanted it now! And, in a lot of ways, he got it. But I think, looking back—and I certainly try to practice this now: Slow down a little bit, take care of yourself, work out more, focus on your health, and focus on other things instead of just work, because you can do all that stuff. That's my advice to my younger self: Slow down! Slow down, man! You're going to get there, don't be in such a hurry!