Interview With the President and Mrs. Johnson on a Recorded Program: "A View From the White House."

[Interview held with Howard K. Smith of the American Broadcasting Company]

MR. SMITH. Mrs. Johnson, what will be the hardest thing for you to leave, here, what part of your life in the White House?

MRS. JOHNSON. This house is a magnet, a crossroads for good conversation, for ideas, for stimulation. All the political leaders of the country and indeed of the whole free world come through these doors, and businessmen and labor leaders and people from arts and entertainment and scientists.

It is an exceedingly stimulating place. That I shall miss. So I think something of that life will go with my husband wherever he goes.

MR. SMITH. What will you be happiest to leave behind?

MRS. JOHNSON. The horrendous ring of that telephone at 4 o'clock that drags you to consciousness and you know on the other end that it is something significant. And it is never good when it rings at that time. It is-and then, the sense of responsibility. It is not my responsibility but it does spill over into the whole climate of your life. And then deadlines, and 18-hour days.

MR. SMITH. The Presidency is a job. We have defined it in the Constitution, we pay a salary for it. Do you ever think of being First Lady as a job?

MRS. JOHNSON. I certainly do. It is--I think perhaps "opportunity" is a better word--a challenge, that treadworn word. You know, really, her role principally is to support and give solace and companionship to her husband. After all, there is only one person that chooses her, and her main job is to give him an island of serenity in which to work, to do his job. There is also--she can serve by being an extra set of eyes and ears for him, and the hostess for all the innumerable activities of this great house.

MR. SMITH. Well, there are no training programs for First Ladies, but you have been the wife of a man who was a Congressman for quite a while; then he was the leading Senator for quite a while; then he was Vice President of the United States for quite a while.

Now, all of that must have equipped you in some degree for this job as First Lady. In what respect has this past experience been useful to you?

MRS. JOHNSON. In two ways, I think, especially. In those 27 years in the Congress, the wife of the Vice President, I did come to know the wives of the Congressmen and the wives of the Senators and the government-all the people in government. I have a lot of respect and understanding and sympathy for the job they do. And I was meeting and dealing with a great many of the friends that I had made over those years. That was, I think, what made the transition easier.

MR. SMITH. What were your thoughts when you knew you had to take over the White House and become the mistress of this place and this job?

MRS. JOHNSON. Can anybody ever forget that time? You remember the time. It was a time of national trauma.

MR. SMITH. Yes.

MRS. JOHNSON. And I don't suppose, in all, there ever was another President who saw the man--when he was Vice President--who saw the man he served assassinated in front of his eyes, and in his own State, and it was a wound and it was very hard. And so, that time that is usually supposed to be a time of merriment and ringing of bells and wearing of ball gowns, but in our case was very different. We came here and I think my particular feelings were intense resolution, that I would live up to it, I would do my job, here.

And second, an overwhelming sympathy for the family that had been struck, and a sympathy beyond expression for my husband that was taking up the job at that point, and with that sympathy they must go on through the years with an increased understanding, and--to back him up.

MR. SMITH. I think about the most impressive ceremonies that take place in the White House are the welcoming occasions and dinners and luncheons for visiting chiefs of state.

I have seen some from the outside. What are they like from the inside?

MRS. JOHNSON. Well, it is in this room that we receive them. Actually this has always been the room where this country has dispensed hospitality to foreign visitors. John and Abigail Adams, in January of 1801, invited the six countries, the six ministers recognizing the United States, then, here. And now they have grown to 117, I think it is, and oh, the visits are very, very many, because we are just, I think it is 16 hours away by jet from any capital in the world, isn't it?

So in our 5 years, here, we have seen a great panoply of them come.

Before dinner the visiting prime minister, or king, or president and his wife come to this room, the Yellow Oval Room. You see they have already put in a good hard working day. There is an exchange of gifts.

So this is the hospitality that adds to the glitter or the warmth of the occasion.

After about 30 minutes the honor guard comes in and says, "We request permission to remove the flags," and the President says, "Yes." So they pick up the flags and march out.

MR. SMITH. Does this room have any special meaning for your family? You must use it for family purposes, also.

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes. I remember especially dear occasions here. One was Christmas of '67. We spent it in the White House. It was significant for many reasons. Lyndon just got back on Christmas morning from a trip around the world. It was just fraught with everything--the sorrow of burying a close friend, Prime Minister Holt of Australia, seeing our troops in Southeast Asia.

But he got back on Christmas morning and, oh, it was just the most glorious Christmas I probably will ever have. Of course we had a new grandson, and all eyes were on him, and he was just making a shambles out of all the lovely wrappings. The most beautiful tree right over there and the red velvet stockings hanging at the mantel, and of course, every time we looked at our two sons-in-law, there was the unspoken thought that next Christmas they probably would not be with us.

And so it was a precious, warm time, just as fragile as a bubble. And one hilarious time was Patrick Lyndon's¹ first birthday, which he celebrated right over there. I had the rug protected with a white cloth underneath it, fortunately, also, because he all at once planted not his hands but his foot in the birthday cake. And there was a fine stuffed tiger standing behind him, one of his birthday presents.

So this room has seen personal as well as state affairs that the Johnsons will always remember with affection and laughter.

¹The President's grandson, Patrick Lyndon Nugent.

MR. SMITH. Do you have any past First Ladies who inspire you or at least provide you with pointers about how to do your work?

MRS. JOHNSON I think about many of them, with admiration and keen--much keener interest. I think each person must hew her own road in the society. I like to read about Abigail Adams who had an intense interest in politics, bold and unusual for her day, and a sense of history, too--a sense of where they were, and the importance of it, and who wrote it.

And then I like, very much, Dolley Madison, because she enjoyed life so much and enjoyed this house, and one should enjoy this beautiful house. You know, she was a hostess here for 8 years for Thomas Jefferson and then she returned again as First Lady.

MR. SMITH. Didn't she, after she left this house, have a home just across the square?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes, and held court, and everybody went to see her. And then, of course, as so many in this century do, I look to Mrs. Franklin Roosevelt with admiration because she expanded this role, and she took it out to the whole country, with such compassion and energy.

So you look at them but, you must, within your own limitations, hew your own path.

MR. SMITH. With the possible exception of Mrs. Roosevelt you are considered the most active First Lady who has ever been here-the most involved in business and in all your husband's affairs as well. Where do you do all your work?

MRS. JOHNSON. At my desk, which is the center, and things emanate out from there. Would you like to go in to see it?

MR. SMITH. I would love to--

[Mrs. Johnson enters her small office adjacent to her bedroom]

MR. SMITH. Is this where you work?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes. Won't you sit down?

MR. SMITH. Mrs. Johnson, it is not much space, but it looks like a lot of work. Can you tell us exactly what happens here at this desk?

MRS. JOHNSON. I read and dictate mail, sign autographs and pictures, read briefings about visitors when we are having a visit. The State Department sends me a thorough briefing on the country and the people. Work on guest lists with Bess Abell; work on trips with Liz Carpenter.² To read the mail is a marvelous thing in itself. It is sort of like having the pulse of the country, the thinking, and feeling.

²Mrs. Bess Abell, White House Social Secretary, and Mrs. Elizabeth S. Carpenter, Press Secretary and Staff Director for the First Lady.

[The President enters]

MR. SMITH. Mr. President, how are you, sir?

Mr. President, we have been talking about the purpose and usefulness of First Ladies and we have had an expert telling us, but now you are an expert. How useful is a First Lady to a President?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I am not familiar with the First Ladies in our early history, but the First Ladies that have been here during the time that I have been in Washington, some six of them, I think, I have seen the assignments and responsibilities grow and grow and grow.

I did not know Mrs. Hoover, but I was very intimately acquainted with the other First Ladies. Certainly I knew Mrs. Roosevelt very well, even before I came to Washington. And I think that she did a great deal to expand the horizon of the job and to make it an implement of force in the country, a force for good, for social progress, for bettering the good causes like education and health and conservation. And the other First Ladies who have followed her have had particular and peculiar interests, but each have made their own outstanding contribution to the history of the place and the development of the country.

MR. SMITH. Mr. President, I noticed when you made your first State of the Union Message many years ago that the first thing you did when you were finished was to look up in the gallery to see whether you had made a mistake or had her approval. What did that mean?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, first of all, I looked up several times as I went through the speech, as well as after I had finished, because Mrs. Johnson has been my most careful and dependable reporter, and I think she reflects the judgment of the average American, and I find that after 35 years of living with me, she can still be objective about me.

MR. SMITH. Do you listen to her advice?

THE PRESIDENT. All the time. More so than any other person I know. A former President said one time that, "after you come to the White House, a President doesn't make friends any more. He has to have his friends made before he gets here because he just loses them after he gets to the place." And I think it is very good that the President be on quite good terms with his wife, at least under such circumstances.

One of the great blessings that has been mine is four quite important women in my life: my mother, my wife, and my two daughters. All of them counsel me and guide me and strengthen me and support me. And, except for that, the job would be much more lonely, and I am afraid I would be much weaker.

MR. SMITH. Well, thank you very much, Mr. President. It is good to hear that. Kind of you to drop in.

[President Johnson leaves the room]

Mrs. Johnson, we have heard all about the programs of your husband that you are involved in, like Head Start and Discover America, and his education programs. How did you become involved in his programs?

MRS. JOHNSON. I think you might say I married into them. Actually, shortly after the election of '64, I began to realize that I wanted to choose some of those things in his administration that I was most in tune with, that made my heart sing most, and try to apply myself to them and support them in any way I could. But otherwise, the number of calls upon you would mean that your efforts would be fragmented and would be of little use.

And so there arose to the surface the interest in children and education, which was formulated in Head Start, and in conservation, which found its expression very much in beautification.

I'd like to tell you something about these projects. Through the training of Head Start, over 2 1/2 million children of preschool age have had a chance to gain self-confidence-a chance to enter school with the proper preparation. Head Start might be considered a form of insurance against later dropping-out.

Woodrow Wilson once said that "the White House has long echoes." I have used this place, the echoes of this house, to further worthwhile projects. I have been very happy to do it.

In regard to conservation, I have loved this country all my life--its mountains and rivers and meadows, all of it. I want to see its beauties preserved for our grandchildren and for all those who come after us--whether it is our deep forests or a sunny Southwest river.

But conservation is many things. It is the fight against water pollution and air pollution. It is building green spaces in the cement centers of busy cities--places of repose for our harried citizens. Its ramifications are endless.

Our beautification program started right here in Washington. Because you start wherever you are, in whatever hometown is yours. You begin with simple aims--litter cleanup and planting flowering shrubs.

For instance, here in Washington, we have beautified one major entrance to the city. On Columbia Island, that's the Memorial Bridge entrance, we planted 800,000 daffodil bulbs. I think I shall always come back in April to see them bloom.

But I think the project that has meant the most was the restoration of Buchanan School, which is in a low-income area here in Washington. This is how it looked before we started work--with an atmosphere of decay and futility.

The school has now been transformed, and the playground is a delight--filled with innovative, impossible-to-injure equipment. In fact, the plaza is equipped for use by the entire community.

MR. SMITH. Has this program spread elsewhere? How is it doing in the Nation?

MRS. JOHNSON. Well, about, I think, 30-odd Governors have called conferences on beautification, and a great many citizens have committees on beautification which consider and work at everything from litter pickup to planting the entrance to the city. The whole gamut--if you ask me how it has fared, I'd say mostly in a change of climate.

MR. SMITH. In your work for these programs you have made quite a few tours over the Nation. I wonder if you could tell us about the trip through Appalachia in connection with education.

MRS. JOHNSON. I got a letter from one of the people who ran the adult education class in Asheville, North Carolina, who told me that, "Before you came, our class was full, we had closed it. After your trip we had quite a lot of letters--people wanting to get in."

This person said, "We decided we could squeeze in 10 more people." And I am just real glad if it made a difference in the lives of those 10 people, that maybe they could do better in their job interviews, get a raise in the job they are in, or if their children would just feel proud of them.

MR. SMITH. Now, in April of this year, you went on another trip on behalf of the program Discover America. I think you took 30 foreign editors all the way to Texas. Can you tell us about that?

MRS. JOHNSON. Well, it was, I think, 38 foreign editors from 13 European countries.

You remember a very serious problem of the time was the balance of payments. We were sending out more dollars than we were bringing in, travelwise, and we hoped to encourage more people to come and see this country; and so the trip, long planned, came at a time of national tragedy, right after the assassination of Martin Luther King. But I thought it was--we should take them on, to show them that though we were having our troubles, that there was a great big, confident, strong America out there beyond the flames of the cities.

We went down to see Padre Island and the newly acquired gem in the national park domain. About 50 miles of waterfront along the gulf which is free for everybody to swim and fish and explore, and we saw the restored La Bahia Mission, a 200-year-old mission, fort, and church combination in Texas--and then fields and fields of the lovely wild flowers that blanket our country in the spring when there is rain.

MR. SMITH. You do many things. Do you think it is possible--is there a compulsion to engage in public activity for a First Lady? Do you think it would be possible for a First Lady in these times to be a private person, to attend to her knitting and sit in the Lincoln Sitting Room and not engage in public activity?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes, I do, because after all, you know there is only one person who chooses her. That is the President.

MR. SMITH. It pretty much depends on the "First Man" that you are chosen by?

MRS. JOHNSON. Well, a combination of the two, and the personality and the desires of the lady, herself, each one must hew her own way in this place.

MR. SMITH. Well, thank you for showing me where you work, Mrs. Johnson. Where does the family meet when it does meet?

MRS. JOHNSON. Shall we go into the family sitting room? Right in there.

This is our family living room. Actually it is both a very intimate place and a sort of Grand Central Station.

This picture of Speaker Sam Rayburn I brought in in my hand when we moved in, on December 7.

MR. SMITH. The first thing you brought?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes. Luci Baines³ had our two little beagles, Him and Her, on a leash and I with the picture.

³ Luci Baines Johnson (Mrs. Patrick J. Nugent).

This table here just naturally accumulates all the latest pictures. Our grandson, Lyn, and now springtime in the hill country.

MR. SMITH. This is on the ranch, isn't it?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes.

MR. SMITH. They are beauties.

MRS. JOHNSON. One of the pastures full of deer and Mexican poppies on the hillside and a lot of books and albums that I love.

This is a Mary Cassatt. I just love it; you wonder what that little girl is thinking, or perhaps she is wondering if that baby is going to have an effect on her life.

You know it was one of my hopes when we moved into this house, Mr. Smith, that we could add to examples of the work of great American painters. I thought this house should have them.

This is a Thomas Sully over here, of Fanny Kemble. She was a British actress who actually had quite an association with the White House. She performed here in the time of Andrew Jackson. And then her nephew married President Grant's daughter, Nellie, in one of the most splendid weddings the White House ever saw.

When we moved in it was necessary to recover some of the furniture and so we put our touch on the place by doing it over in our favorites: cheerful yellow and soft greens and gay chintzes, and we added books and albums and things from home.

And of course a house always has something to remind you of your own folks. That is my father, Thomas Jefferson Taylor, and my two brothers when they were little boys. And Lyndon's father and mother in the miniatures.

MR. SMITH. Is that the President's chair?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes, it is. And we have also put around some of the needlepoint pillows that various friends have done over the years, and finally it all acquires the quality of home.

MR. SMITH. Mrs. Johnson, is this where you wait for the President?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes, that is his office. You know, psychologically it is miles and miles away because of the responsibility and the load. Physically it is very close. And so toward the end of the day I bring in whatever letters there are left to sign, memos to read, or just curl up with a good book here and wait, maybe 8:30, 9:00, 10:00, sometimes we have dinner at 11:00.

Finally I hear the three rings on the elevator. That is the sign that he is coming, and then in a moment I hear his voice saying, "Where's Bird?" And I know the day is ended, and he is home.

Shall we sit down?

MR. SMITH. Mrs. Johnson, I was assigned to cover governments all over the world. And I have never seen the residence of a First Family which was an office, with two thousand employees, and at the same time a national monument, with tourists pouring through it all the time. How do you make a home in the midst of all this?

MRS. JOHNSON. Well, first when we moved in we can have a tendency to walk on tiptoes and talk in whispers. But that goes, you become used to it. The White House does have three roles you know. It is a national monument, a museum, and all the people of this country and foreign countries come through at about the rate of 1,800,000 a year. And sometimes on a peak Saturday, in spring, there will be 26,000 people going through.

But they are downstairs in the State Rooms, and it is theirs. You know I rather like to think about it.

And then, second, it is a place where the country, the United States, dispenses its hospitality to the world and to all its own citizens.

And in the third role, is the role of just being the home of these families that have lived here.

MR. SMITH. It is so complicated and there is so much movement and so many things going on, how did you make it mesh and work? Weren't you afraid that orders would get lost in the chaos of movement?

MRS. JOHNSON. Mr. Smith, I soon discovered the White House staff is a wonderful, ongoing body. There are three members here who have been here since President Hoover's time. And many from F.D.R.'s time. They love this house and they are very caring of the people who live here, whoever they are, time after time, and very efficient. I have kept house quite vigorously for 29 years and I was delighted to turn a great deal of it over to them.

MR. SMITH. The President works all day and sometimes into the night. I wonder if he brings his problems home here with him, the way other men do, bringing their problems from work?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes. Of course. And, well, frequently he also brings with him members of his staff--the last appointment, the people he is working with--and continues working. But when he comes alone, he brings the problems and, you know, I would feel that it was--I would feel somehow I had failed if he didn't. Because where else can he feel more relaxed about them and more--where would he have an audience better suited to hear about them quite privately and quite honestly?

MR. SMITH. It is said that the Presidency is the loneliest office in the land. I wonder if that carries over into the First Family? Is there any kind of barrier between this family and others in the Nation? Do people hesitate to invite you out because you are the President and the First Lady?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes, there is, I think, a barrier. I once said that friends weren't as likely to invite you over at 6 o'clock on a Sunday evening to have a hamburger in the backyard and yet it hasn't been more than a week or so ago when two good friends of ours invited us, one for the first course of dinner in their apartment and the other to come down to theirs on the floor below and have dessert. You know, exactly the sort of thing we would have done 30 years ago when we were young married people. So, this barrier does not extend all over and also it is temporary.

MR. SMITH. Mrs. Johnson, the main function of that office down there is to turn out decisions, very hard decisions on unpopular things. Does the President's making of decisions ever strain relations with old friends?

MRS. JOHNSON. Yes, I think that is the most eroding and painful thing about this job. Not necessarily just old friends but with different segments of the United States. Because there may be a bill, a program, on which not all the right is on one side and not all the wrong on the other. But there comes a time when you don't have the luxury of discussion or evaluation or an attempt to change it any more, adjust it, you simply have to choose. And--and that is the hardest thing here, I think.

MR. SMITH. One of my reporter colleagues has called the White House the "center of crises" because here is where all the crises come. Now, we know in the press what happens down here during a crisis because we read about it and write about it in the papers and on television. But what happens here in the family quarters? How does it affect you when there is a crisis going on?

MRS. JOHNSON. Mr. Smith, I think, for one thing, the children and I try to retreat and remove from the scene any of our own personal problems or crises, not to impede for one moment the work of the time. And there is, sometimes a tension that you can almost touch. And you search the faces of the members of the Cabinet or congressional leaders, as they come or go, looking for the answers.

One barometer is always the presence of a TV van out there on Executive Avenue, and that means that things are happening. And it is seldom good things, and you look into the dark and there is one man surrounded by the dark and then a spotlight on him and he is talking into the microphone. And when they finally drive away you know that the crisis has abated for the time.

MR. SMITH. All day long this house is alive with movement. What is it like after dark? A friend of mine who was one of your guests here said that deep into the night he felt the presence of ghosts of people who lived here. Do you have some sense of the presence of the people who lived here?

MRS. JOHNSON. I like it at night. I often walk around, just to sense it and drink it in. But no, I haven't had any encounter with ghosts. However, there is sometimes a sense of presence.

I remember one night in February, I think it was '65, the centennial of Lincoln's death, I was watching a very good TV drama alone in my bedroom and the fire was flickering and I looked above the mantel and my eyes came to light on the plaque that said, "In this room Abraham Lincoln slept in the years of his Presidency 1861 to 1865." And I got that eery chill.

MR. SMITH. What are your favorite places in this house?

MRS. JOHNSON. Oh, so many and so dear. There is the Green Room which is eloquent and patrician, a delightful room to have tea on a winter evening with the fire going and Benjamin Franklin, that worldly, sophisticated man, looking down on you.

A room I have done a lot of work in and have a unique affection for is the Treaty Room, which I had at first found overpowering. It is extremely Victorian you know, sort of forbidding. But it is an excellent place to gather around that table, which was once the Cabinet able, when you have eight or ten people who want to express their ideas and take notes. I would call it, laughingly, my "Board of Directors Room." That is where the Lyndon Johnson Library has been brought from the germ of an idea up toward being a reality.

MR. SMITH. What is your favorite-most place?

MRS. JOHNSON. In all the whole house, the Truman Balcony, I think. Shall we go and look at it?

MR. SMITH. I would love to see it. President Truman was criticized for building this balcony, but I think it is a great hit with you, isn't it, Mrs. Johnson?

MRS. JOHNSON. I bless him every day. I shall always have the fondest memories of this spot. This balcony has provided a view of the gayest and brightest White House affairs ever held on the South Lawn.

Just this summer we had our country fair for underprivileged children. It was a huge success; with a ferris wheel, and clowns, and a merry-go-round and, of course, that delicious cotton candy. They loved it all.

And it was from this balcony that Luci threw her bridal bouquet to Lynda.⁴ And as you recall, Lynda was married here in the White House.

⁴ Lynda Bird Johnson (Mrs. Charles S. Robb).

The great arrival ceremonies and the entertainment which follows, are our Nation's highest honors for visiting heads of state. They have never lost their excitement for me.

We have sometimes changed the location of the state dinner, usually held in the Sate Dining Room, to the Rose Garden. This one was especially beautiful, with the lights softly glowing under the tent, and the Singing Strings serenading the guests.

But Mr. Smith, there are other reasons I love this spot and the prospect it looks out upon. It has been a source of strength and refreshment to me. Standing here, I remember the important and enduring qualities of the White House--its serenity and expansiveness.

I think of the men and women who have lived here and who have gazed upon this scene. And I know that future presidents and First Ladies will find strength and inspiration here, as they look upon the symbols of greatness of our Nation's past.