Interview With the President Question-and-Answer Session With Heinz Lohfeldt of Der Spiegel Magazine.

U.S.-GERMAN RELATIONS

MR. LOHFELDT. Mr. President, critics on both sides of the Atlantic assert that relations between the United States and its strongest ally in Europe, the Federal Republic, have reached a low point.

THE PRESIDENT. I believe that German-American relations are in fact both very good and extraordinarily close. Our two governments consult as intensely and frequently as at any other time in the history of the Western Alliance. And on our basic objectives, we agree completely. Naturally, we may sometimes differ in specific goals and approaches, but these honest differences, frankly expressed, between close friends and allies are actually a sign of the strength of our relationship.

MR. LOHFELDT. So there is no bad rapport between you and Chancellor Schmidt?

THE PRESIDENT. My personal relationship with Chancellor Schmidt is excellent. I have met with him four times since coming into office, and we consult regularly by telephone. I have the highest respect and regard for him as a wise and distinguished statesman, and as a personal friend. Our meetings have always been a source of personal pleasure and value for me, and I look forward to seeing him again in Bonn this week.

MR. LOHFELDT. DO you think that Germany should play a special role within the Western Alliance, and how would you describe this role?

THE PRESIDENT. The Federal Republic plays a vital role within the Western Alliance, in close harmony with the United States and our mutual allies. It is Western Europe's strongest economic power, it makes a large and effective contribution to NATO security, and it shares in the political leadership of the Alliance. This is not a "special" role, as you suggest, rather it reflects the deep commitment of a nation that prizes its freedom and its partnership with like-minded nations of the West.

U.S. ROLE IN EUROPE

MR. LOHFELDT. In Europe, but here in the United States as well, there is increasing talk of an American "leadership crisis." In the U.S., this crisis is reflected in the most recent, rather negative opinion polls. Within the Western Alliance, this criticism for example has been voiced by Chancellor Helmut Schmidt during his last visit to Washington. What is your response to those critics?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I think, the stability of the Western Alliance is a proof that we don't lack leadership. There was a time, maybe a couple of years ago and before, when the commitment to NATO, for instance, was very doubtful among some of the members.

Now there is again a new spirit of commitment to a stronger NATO Alliance. Our own Congress, the people of our Nation, have a much firmer commitment to the NATO Alliance than was the case in the past. And we have a strong relationship with our allies and friends as we have ever had that I can remember in my lifetime. So, I think, there is no evidence of a lack of adequate leadership. The leadership as evidenced in this community of Western democracies is very tangible and demonstrable.

U.S. SOVIET RELATIONS

MR. LOHFELDT. Critics charge there is no clear American foreign policy concept, and especially no clear concept for American policy towards the Soviet Union. For example, on the one hand, you and your advisers oppose the Soviet expansion in Africa, while on the other hand, your Secretary of State, Cyrus Vance, resumes the negotiations for a new SALT agreement with his Soviet counterpart, Gromyko. How do you reconcile these policies?

THE PRESIDENT. The United States seeks a detente that is both broadly defined and fully reciprocal. We recognize, however, that our relations with the Soviet Union will continue to be a mixture of cooperation and competition. For our part, we want to enlarge areas of cooperation, and my administration has engaged the Soviet Union in a broad range of efforts to limit and reduce arms. But when necessary, we will act to ensure our security and that of our allies.

If there is to be a genuine detente, the Soviet Union must recognize, as we do, the responsibility we both share to work for just and peaceful solutions to the world's problems, rather than aggravating those problems or increasing the likelihood of conflict. This is why we have expressed our concern over the actions of the Soviet Union and its ally Cuba in Africa.

MR. LOHPELDT. But you refuse to link SALT—

THE PRESIDENT. With regard to SALT, my administration has from the beginning placed the highest importance on the need to halt the upward spiral of nuclear weapons. We are prepared to conclude a SALT II agreement that truly enhances Western security. As I said at Annapolis:

"We have no desire to link this negotiation for a SALT agreement with other competitive relationships nor to impose other special conditions on the process. In a democratic society, however, where public opinion is an integral factor in the shaping and implementation of foreign policy, we do recognize that tensions, sharp disputes, or threats to peace will complicate the quest for a successful agreement. This is not a matter of our preference but a simple recognition of facts."

MR. LOHFELDT. While you refuse to link the SALT talks to any other problem in American-Soviet relations, the Soviets are challenging the West in Africa, take American newspapermen into court, and hold trials against prominent Soviet dissidents. Don't you feel that they are exploiting the American policy of no linkage and try to test your resolve?

THE PRESIDENT. I don't believe that a trial of innocent citizens, whether they be Americans or Soviet citizens, is a test of my own resolve or an attack on the people of the United States. This problem of Shcharanskiy, Ginzburg, Orlov, and others, of American newspersons and American businessmen is really an attack on people throughout the world who believe in human freedom. And it is made in direct violation of written international agreements signed voluntarily by the Soviet Union.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed by the Soviet Union as part of the United Nations, and the Final Act of the Helsinki agreement, which was signed by the Soviet Union, along with 34 other nations in Europe and North America, calls for the preservation within each country individually of the rights of a citizen to emigrate if he .chooses, or to live with one's own family, or to voice opinions even sometimes in criticism of one's own government. The Soviets have violated the various agreements which they voluntarily signed.

SOVIET DISSIDENTS

MR. LOHFELDT. The Soviets argue that the dissident trials are a purely Soviet matter and charge your administration with interference in their internal affairs.

THE PRESIDENT. When we speak out on humanitarian issues, we do so not to interfere in the internal affairs of other nations, but because of our belief in the value of the individual. Our concern for human rights is global and is not restricted to any nation or region. But my guess is that this effort in stamping out dissident voices will be unsuccessful. So, I don't look upon this action by the Soviets as an attack on me or on the American people. It doesn't damage our country. I think it arises an almost universal, justifiable condemnation of the world towards the Soviets and reveals a weakness of their own system of not being able to withstand the lonely voice of a dissident or an. accurate newspaper report that is printed not in the Soviet Union, but in a foreign country.

STRATEGIC ARMS LIMITATION

MR. LOHFELDT. In view of the most recent Soviet actions, especially the trials in Moscow, the pressure of linking these actions and SALT is rapidly growing here in Washington. Senator Jackson called the resumption of the SALT talks "the wrong signal at the wrong time." What is your answer to these pressures?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, throughout history the interrelationship between the Soviet Union and the United States has demonstrated the advisability of searching out common ground on which we could cooperate to the mutual benefit of our people.

In the heat of the Vietnam war, I think in the same month that we mined the harbor of Haiphong, SALT I was signed. So, when it is obviously to the mutual benefit of our people and to the benefit of the entire world to restrict or even to reduce the level of nuclear weapon inventories, it would be a serious mistake to terminate those discussions or those conferences because of other factors which don't directly reflect on them. So, we have kept separate the negotiations with the Soviet Union on SALT.

But we reserve the right to privately and publicly criticize the Soviets when they violate the basic human rights agreements that they have signed or when through unwarranted actions they have intruded themselves or their surrogates, the Cuban troops, into the internal affairs of, for instance, African nations.

MR. LOHFELDT. Do you share Secretary Vance's optimism that a new SALT agreement will ultimately be ratified by the U.S. Senate? Right now it seems that many Senators consider the linkage a reality and would not be prepared to judge a new SALT agreement on its own merits, but rather in connection with the general Soviet behavior.

THE PRESIDENT. Yes, my belief is that the Senate will ultimately make a judgment on the merits of the agreement itself. And there is an overwhelming support for a successful and mutually beneficial SALT agreement among the American people. I think this support will be mirrored ultimately in the action of the U.S. Senate. And my experience with the Senate has been that in a showdown, when the final decision is made, they will act responsibly and in the best interest of all.

MR. LOHFELDT. Like in the debate on the Panama Canal treaties?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes. And the Mideast arms sale. They have a very difficult issue to decide now about the removal of the embargo on the sale of weapons to Turkey. But I found a majority of Senators to be very courageous and very sound in their judgment and to make the right decision.

DETENTE

MR. LOHFELDT. However, the escalation in the war of words between the

Soviet Union and the United States has created the impression that we are witnessing the end of the era of detente and the return of the cold war. In your opinion, is the policy of detente endangered, or has it already failed?

THE PRESIDENT. Neither in the United States nor in the Soviet Union was detente ever regarded as a panacea that would end competition between two radically different systems, each with its own interests. But we value it now for the same reason we originally pursued it: as an antidote to the uncontrolled competition between the United States and the Soviet Union that might threaten us both, and the rest of the world.

Thus, the United States is fully committed to the search for relations among states that will resolve conflicts of interest peacefully. The SALT talks, for example, are a partial step toward reducing the threat of strategic nuclear weapons. While the road toward that goal is a long one, the effort is vital; and we will continue its pursuit.

I believe that the Soviet leadership shares my country's view of the importance of ensuring greater stability in our relations. We continually urge the Soviet Union to respond in kind to our efforts to reduce competition in our relations and to expand areas of cooperation.

SOVIET AND CUBAN INVOLVEMENT IN AFRICA

MR. LOHFELDT. How do you, in this context, evaluate the presence of the Soviets and the Cubans in Africa? Are they acting according to a long-term strategy, or are they just exploiting the situation of the moment?

THE PRESIDENT. In my speech at Annapolis, I spelled out the basic American approach to Africa: to work for "a continent that is free of the dominance of outside powers, free of the bitterness of racial injustice, free of conflict, and free of the burden of poverty, hunger, and disease." I believe that all people of good will can subscribe to these objectives.

In recent months, the Soviet Union and Cuba have taken a different course, which is clearly inconsistent with the independent development of free nations. Yet, whatever their motives for interfering in individual African nations, I believe the Soviet Union and Cuba will find their intrusion decisively rejected by the people of Africa. Countries that suffered through long decades of colonialism are not likely to welcome a new imperialism. And it is to help these countries maintain their rightful place in the community of nations that I and members of my administration have called attention to Soviet and Cuban actions.

SOVIET MILITARY BUILDUP

MR. LOHFELDT. You have asserted that the Soviet military buildup by far exceeds its legitimate security needs. What exactly do you mean?

THE PRESIDENT. The United States and its allies believe that the increased Soviet military buildup cannot be explained in terms of any legitimate concern with the Western defense posture. This applies in particular to the buildup of Warsaw Pact forces in Central Europe, and to the steady growth of Soviet forces for more than a decade.

MR. LOHFELDT. So what is the West supposed to do?

THE PRESIDENT. I have confidence in the strength of the West to meet this challenge-strength in military forces, in our collective will, and in our economies, political systems, and moral values. We will continue to maintain that strength. In time, we hope to convince the Soviet Union that a competition in arms adds nothing to either side's security, so that it will turn away from its overemphasis on military power and toward peaceful pursuits.

U.S.-CHINESE RELATIONS

MR. LOHFELDT. Regarding the permanent conflict between the Soviet Union and China, do you think it wise for the United States to play the "Chinese card" in order to put some pressure on the Soviet Union?

THE PRESIDENT. "Chinese card" is not a term used by my administration. The United States seeks to improve its relations with both the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China. With regard to China, that means working within the framework of the Shanghai Communiqué, in the search for practical ways to normalize our relations.

MR. LOHFELDT. And you are not afraid that a closer U.S.-Chinese relationship might lead to an even more adamant Soviet attitude?

THE PRESIDENT. As the United States has made clear many times, nothing in the evolution of our policy towards China is in any way intended to affect adversely the interests of third countries, including the Soviet Union. We believe that a productive U.S.-Chinese relationship is worth seeking on its own merits, and that a strong and secure China is in our interest.

U.S. ENERGY POLICY

MR. LOHFELDT. Mr. President, the western economy is in a severe crisis. One of the main reasons and symptoms is the weakness of the U.S. dollar, which is, first of all, caused by America's massive oil imports. What kind of a solution do you envisage to reduce these imports?

THE PRESIDENT. We have already been quite successful in carrying out the basic promises of the London Economic Summit. We agreed to attempt to cut down on the level of oil imports, and we have had good success.

MR. LOHFELDT. Really?

THE PRESIDENT. In the first 5 months of this year, without an energy law being in effect, we reduced the oil imports by almost 1 million barrels a day. And with the passage of the energy legislation, we anticipate another 2.3 million barrels a day of savings.

MR. LOHFELDT. But how are the chances for the passage of the energy legislation?

THE PRESIDENT. Agreement has been reached among the major committees of the Congress on four out of the five components of the comprehensive program we proposed to reduce consumption and increase production on energy. The fifth element of this package, the crude oil equalization tax, is still being considered by the Congress. I am working closely with the Congress to secure its passage, and I think they will decide this successfully before they adjourn for this year. I remain committed to this legislation and its objectives.

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMY

MR. LOHFELDT. In Bonn, you will, after your state visit, meet with the heads of state or government of the most important industrial countries of the West. What will you offer your partners to improve the state .of the world economy?

THE PRESIDENT. The central theme of the economic summit is "concerted action," with each country sharing the responsibility of improving the world economy. Two of my highest priorities are lowering the U.S. inflation rate and reducing our oil imports.

In Bonn, I will spell out the steps we are taking to implement these policies and the reasons why I am confident we will succeed. Most of the economic problems are attributable to severe trade imbalances among us.

Last year, our Nation had a very high growth rate. We were financially able to buy goods from other countries, like Germany and Japan, for example. Our growth rate was maintained, and so we have met the goal we had established at the London Economic Summit Conference. Other nations were not quite so successful. But I hope that in Bonn other heads of government will be forthcoming in the areas of trade and growth. Progress in both areas will be important to the well-being of the world economy and, of course, to the American economy as well.

ADMINISTRATION POLICIES

MR. LOHFELDT. Mr. President, you have been in office now for some 18 months. How do you feel? Are you still optimistic about the course and the future of your administration?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes, I am. We have spelled out fairly, I think, the goals for our Nation in the time I am in the White House, and we have had some good successes.

MR. LOHFELDT. For example?

THE PRESIDENT. A year ago, my biggest problem in this country was the unemployment rate. It was almost 8 percent when I took office. I and the Congress have acted, I think, very effectively to bring this unemployment rate down. We have added a net 6.4 million jobs and cut the unemployment rate by 2 percent. We also have very good strides in reorganizing our Government. And we have tried to bring about a repairing of the spirit of our country in the aftermath of the Vietnam war and the Watergate problem. I think we have done that successfully; the attitude of our people is better.

We have still got a long way to go to solve all our problems. But we have made good progress, and I feel very optimistic about the future.

MR. LOHFELDT. Mr. President, thank you for this interview.